The most recent nightly build for Mac OS comes with a little surprise – the fake title bar is replaced with the OS-native title bar. Yay! Thanks Kreeger!
I’ll list some pros and cons:
Pros:
- The title bar will inherit styles defined by the OS – eg: rounded corners, title text beveling, aqua/graphite buttons.
- The window will behave like any other window – eg: resizing is faster, dragged between spaces works, window shadow is native, ability to show/hide the tool bar.
- Modal dialogs appear as sheets that are attached to the window which means that modal dialogs will always be modal. (this is specific to Mac OS)
Cons:
- Lose the ability to right click on the title bar to toggle between layouts and feathers. You can still switch feathers using the View menu. The default key combination for toggling between layouts on Mac OS is command + shift + m.
- The title bar will look out of place if the rest of the application is not styled to match the OS. Gonzo’s current visual design matches Mac OS pretty well so no worries here.
Given these points, how would you feel if we turned on the native title bar on Windows and Linux? Keep in mind that turning on the native title bar would mean that the rest of the application would need to be updated to reflect the OS theme to match the title bar. So the real question is: Would you like it if Songbird matched your OS theme by default just like Firefox? Here’s a sneak peak…
By the way, we are just talking about the default feather here. We’ll make sure that any decisions we make wont affect feathers developed by the community.
129 Comments
Subscribeplease do not change it. i like the title bar as it is now…. it look like the rest of the songbird..
maybe there could be a check box ( or something like this) into options menu…and if someone would want songbird to match the OS theme, he could check it
I like the non-native titlebars too, and Microsoft has really moved away from the native look with a lot of their applications too.
NO title bar. Thanks.
i dont mind it
I like it, this was the recommendation I added to the survey just yesterday, i want native themes by default like Firefox 3.0, and native title bar.. yes!!!!
> Given these points, how would you feel if we turned on the native title bar on Windows and Linux?
Yes please! The time for custom themed applications is over. Please use native styles whereever it is possible! Thanks!
Please do change it. I can’t middle click the title bar and set VirtuaWin rules for it unless it uses the native title bar. I’ve tried using the Nativebird feather but that crashes Songbird often and it is very ugly.
Can you make it an option? If not, don’t do it. I like the way it is now.
To be honest, I wish windows/gnome would place the file-menu in the title bar all the time!
While I agree that os-native styles are nice, and while I hate the shit out of Windows Media Player for how useless their interface is (if you’re going to break your own rules, at least do so for a good reason, and do so well!), I think the titlebar is pretty useless for most applications.
I like the way you do it
Also: Look at how much nicer Clearlooks is than Ubuntu’s Human theme! Personally it’s my favourite, closely followed by the black XP style (which is needlessly big, though).
I’d vote for the native OS look.
I talked with Linux Users, and they really hate it to have a custom titlebar designed by Songbird, they mostly, prefer there own interface …
I’m happy to have it on Mac now
Thank you !
I would prefer that all my applications match my native os skin. this is one thing I like about fb2k. I was always turned off by how other media players try to look as unique as possible.
@ Yves Van Goethem
Yeah – that’s the feedback I hear from Linux users as well. Also, I think Linux users will be happy to see this bug fixed (I’m assuming it will get fixed with the title bar):
[linux] Main window does not exhibit Compiz Fusion window effects
maybe you can ship with two feathers and default to the native one so everyone can chose which style they want
Eh, personally I like it as it is, custom-themed. iTunes, WinAMP, WiMP – they’re all custom-themed, so it’s par for the course, and I think Songbird would lose a lot of it’s new cohesive look if you migrated to a system theme. If you made it optional, more power to you, but I’d hate to see the custom title bar disappear completely.
For those of you looking for a system title bar, you could give the More Gonzo Addon a try. The “Main Alternate” feather frames the player in the system title bar and status bar.
I think using the native tile bar is preferred since this gives operating systems more flexibility as to how they manage windows. On UNIX X11 systems there are many tile based window mangers which have no concept of minimizing a window, e.g. the ion window manger, so the minimize button on songbird makes no sense in these situations, nor would it on a handheld device.
I prefer the native OS look by default. If someone wants to use the other way, s/he could make a custom feather.
Please do allow native theming (at least as an option, if not the default). It makes the entire application look more polished, and I find that native theming often suite unusual screen resolutions (like my Acer Aspire’s 1024×600) much better than do fake natives.
I vote for native title bar as in ubuntu you can skin this to you liking too. If it did go native, would it mean that compiz (wobbley windows etc) effects and drag between desktops would work?
I would love an OPTIONAL native title-bar.
But if I must make a choice, I definitely want the customizable non-native title-bar. So please don’t change it, if the current behaviour will get lost!
Well, you already know how I feel, but yes! Let’s use native titlebars by default everywhere. Beyond the aesthetics there are ton of tricky technical reasons.
I think the actual Gonzo feather (title bar) is great as it is.
OS-skins should be avaible as an option.
Well, I would like native titlebars, but ONLY TITLEBARS. On your samples in the post the menu & media controls also have native colors, that I don’t like.
I like the idea of native OS as a default. You can always change it to what you want, so its good to have a choice.
Yes, please do change it. Songbird just looks out of place otherwise, especially on Win Vista
Native is always good.
As long as enough of Songbird’s visual identity is kept, I wouldn’t mind a native look-and-feel. Frankly, it’s WAY too big of a change to just “hope it’s ready” for the 1.0 primetime. I would’ve liked at least another 0.x release to decide if native look-and-feel is productive.
I love a native look-and-feel, but if Songbird’s visual identity can’t be kept, then it’s not worth it IMO. I think music programs in particular must have some skin or identity, to match how “abstract” or “emotional” music is to everyday users. For example, I identify Winamp by its “driven” metallic blue and sheen; WMP by its “soothing” blacks and blues; and Songbird by its “smooth, neutral” grays. That abstractness improves the listening experience, and undoubtedly you’d lose some of that in a native look-and-feel. In fact I’m turned off by Ubuntu’s packaged Rhythmbox Music Player — while it’s completely native, its visual look is, by consequence, completely generic. That’s honestly no fun.
If you can preserve enough of Songbird’s abstract visual identity, then by all means go for it. Otherwise, it just isn’t worth it. Maybe you could package both skins in 1.0?
I really like the idea of a native skin as an option. But I still think that Gonzo should be the default skin.
In short, my opinion echoes RPG Master’s.
Should look and behave natively – applications that don’t are a pain in the neck. They might *look* pretty, but when all the standard window actions act differently, it’s a nuisance. Can I use the titlebar to send it to a different desktop? Can I mark it as always-on-top? Can I roll it up into just a title bar? Can I maximise/minimze with my standard keyboard shortcuts?
For a native app, I can rely on all that stuff working. Not so when developers decide to do things their own way.
As a Linux & GNOME user, I’d very much like the title bar to match the system theme.
Yes, yes, yes, oh GOD yes. I got over applications deciding they needed to be special snowflakes in high school.
You should at least make it an option.
I think Media players should have a custom theme on them.
I run all three of the magor OSs
MAC – I want the system.
Linux – System there as well
Windows – Windows system bar is so crappy I want the custom title bar.
I prefer the native look.
I think native would be a sweet option. Definitely would be great for Linux. Are you going to implement buttons as well like Firefox did with their keyhole concept?
native is good
flows better in my opinion
I would prefer a native look by default.
I agree with ‘Maxwell Citizen Kepl’… but there definitely needs to be an option to switch it back and forth, Good idea Songbird Team!
Well i would much enjoy the theme kept as is or @ least offered as is in some form or manner. weather it be default or not isn’t the hugest of concerns but for the love of god, stop skrewing w/ the cool look songbird used to garnish.
I’d like the native titlebar on Windows. Or at least, I’d like it so that you can’t move a maximised window like you can at the moment!
You know I want native titlebar, plus -moz-appearance: toolbar as appropriate
Of course, I also want to have at least two months of bake time to shake out any bugs. This includes on the Mac (it should go native on all platforms at once). Otherwise it’s just shipping a buggy release.
See also: how brilliantly we have maintained Plucked.
@Simon
You’re right on the money. It’s actually fairly challenging technically to implement one titlebar that behaves properly on 3 operating systems (some of which have a lot of different Window Managers available
).
This is why we currently have something called the integration component. This component is responsible for trying to bridge the gap between the toolkit we are using and the operating system. As you can imagine, that component is full of clever hacks to try and get stuff to work like the OS (and the user) wants it.
Even though we may switch to native titlebars, I do believe we’ll be maintaining the custom title bar widget as well. It won’t go away and we will accept patches!
I like Gonzo the way it is. Having the option to enable it when you want would be great, but I wonder if that would have a big impact on performance?
I prefer the non native look on Windows.
The native Windows title bar mixed with the Songbird GUI (which has an os x feel) would look silly in my opinion
the os x one seems to suit, so go for it!
Dear God please leave it the way it is for Windows.
I vote keep it as it is. I often use songbird over dual screen, and i like to have songbird maximized* over a whole screen while i browse the internet. I like the fact that the whole screen has a set theme that does not break, even up to the edges.
* Currently there is a bug maximizing over a secondary screen, i just stretch it to fit.
For Linux/Gtk: please make it native style, with updated icons (you can borrow them from banshee/rhythmbox.)
I don’t recommend native style for Windows XP though.
@cellarmation
You’ll be happy to know that we’ve got a fix for that!
You can look at all the tasty info in bug 8535 
Thanks Mook!
I’d love a good native theme. I’m using Windows XP with a Visual Style that I like and would like my media player to match it. The “sneak peak” you posted looks perfect.
(P.S. What is it with media players & disc burning software? Why is it so important for them to look different?)
I’d like to see native look on Linux. On Mac is also needed but maybe on Windows would look too generic.
One more vote for native style by default. By all means keep the non-native one an option, but you’re never going to properly replicate all the functionality of the native one for everybody.
I would like the native Windows look, in the beginning of songbird I almost ditched it because I hate non-native title-bars. Now I’m used to it, but I still like to get a native bars.
NO. Hate it. Half the reason I use Windows “Live” apps is because they DON’T use native title bars…
Yes i would like have a native look on linux !
Why does the new OS X version have this ugly black line between the title bar and the actual application? iTunes and other native apps do not have this line.
It’s good like this, there were enough years/apps with the windows title bar…
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Yes, please make the title bar native in Linux. I have the title bar set up so the buttons are the other way round, which makes Songbird awkward to use at the moment.
I prefer the native title tab better than the current one.
It is obvious from all the comments that there are strong feelings on both sides. Therefore I think the only sensible thing is to have both options available. To ensure that people don’t get a shock when install the new version or completely miss the change, it is probably worth giving the users the choice in the first run wizard just like Winamp does with its skins. My vote happens to be for the OS-native titlebar.
I would really appreciate an OS-native titlebar. Because then Songbird would do all the visual effects, that the environment does (like wobbling windows and stuff). Right now the ‘bird really looks out of place in my KDE4 environment.
As much as I’d like to see native skins, it’s probably not worth it for the moment, because the Songbird team is too small to maintain them, even Firefox, for instance struggles with being native on Vista (and XP and Mac and Gnome). If you were to leave the icons untouched and just make the rest look natively, this would result in a rather unfinished look (colours of icons are sometimes pretty important). What I’d love to see though would be if you could use pseudo-native widgets (widgets whose shapes look native, but which match Songbird’s colour scheme — practically making them all grey).
Otherwise, I don’t really need native title bars, but having a dedicated title bar and a dedicated menu bar would be great, Imho. (Albeit native titlebars have some advantages — you will never be able to emulate everything the original title bar does and some window managers under linux don’t even have (a graphical) one, so you might be adding something that the user does not usually have.)
I vote for native title bars. I like how Firefox 3 now has a default theme to conforms to the native look and feel on all platforms. Songbird should try to replicate this.
Like others have commented, this would likely solve the issue with compiz effects. I don’t mind so much that songbird customizes the theme, but it bugs me that its the only window on my desktop that doesn’t wobble when it moves.
If too many people don’t want this as the default theme then I suggest we have an alternative official theme with a native look for linux and distributions would be free to package this as the default if they wanted to.
I don’t like non-native apps, so a well-integrated Songbird would really be a plus. Firefox recently went dramatically better integrated in Linux, and I definitely like it.
Unlike Aaron Strontsman I don’t think it is more difficult to maintain it, to the contrary, XUL have native bindings and I think it is even simple to use them without any modification.
I think we can see by the variety of responses here, that if it is implemented (which I would prefer) there needs to be an option to have the titlebar like it was before (ie. themed by Songbird)
I am for NATIVE title bars. I have always been annoyed that songbird custom themes the title bar. When I am running a program in Windows, I want to see the Windows theme, not what the developers of the program decide on.
I like Rj’s suggestion of having both as an option, and then letting the user decide a la Winamp. Songbird has a first-run wizard anyway — plus the look is important enough to justify another screen. Again, I believe a music player’s skin is really integral to the listening experience.
I actually attempted to make a native theme for Songbird. It is named Flyerfox; http://addons.songbirdnest.com/addon/101. It didn’t prove to be too popular though. No idea if it was because most people disliked the idea or because I worked it oud badly.
@aus
As you can imagine, that component is full of clever hacks to try and get stuff to work like the OS (and the user) wants it.
And that’s *exactly* the problem. Rather than writing a music player, you’re writing hacks to work around problems caused by a decision to do things differently. If you used native window decorations, the desktop would do it all for you…
As linux user, I’d liked to have native support! I don’t know if that’s a pain in the ass, but you could use your plug-in functionality to keep the old look for those who need it.
Native title bar yes please!
No porfabor dejar la barra en Mac como es No quiero nada parecido a Windows y Ademas luce mejor asi como esta gracias.
Definite vote for an option. Linux? Yeah, I think a more native feel would be good. However, Win XP looks like crap without the custom title bar. I think the native title bar would be OK on Ubuntu except for the fact that Compiz doesn’t work. That’s the worst part about Songbird on Ubuntu for me right now. Even the Gstreamer nightmare (that I eventually resolved) wasn’t a big deal in the end, whereas that bug drives me crazy. Thanks!
Native title bar please. I hate it when software has its own title bar, it does not have the uniform feeling. I had enough of random software with custom title bar.. Probably better if the title bar is switchable, so people who prefer the original title bar can still access it..
ONLY as an option please.
GTK COMPATIBILITY FOR THE WIN!
I think to choice the native little and the old deafault gonzo must be on beginning of install.
on winamp)
Do you remember that winamp let us the option to choice the skin on begening (always I choice the classic
Getting native skin on vista i think is a good idea, but must be a option
During the install and inside the program (changing features).
Windows vista could be beatyfull, just look to windows media player 11.
But songbird using windows xp native, eeechaaa! horrible…
Let us the option to choice
Yes make them native. I like the ideas behind Songbird, but its biggest drawbacks are:
- laughably slow
- it sticks out like a big, black, sore thumb visually
I think that Songbird have a lot of potential to be the default music player for ubuntu, for that you need to:
1. be free (gpl)
2. better then any GTK2 music player (no problem )
3. stable (6 month is enough)
4. integrated with the gnome feel and look (theme, icons…)
the big problem is with 4, so i say yes for integration (at least for linux), but give the “old” one as an option
p.s why did you move the play bar to the top ?
I vote for the native Windows Titlebar. And hope for improved speed.
Please keep it the same for windows.
Do it please, and make it run as fast as a firefox or a iTunes.
Actually, the non-native look (on Linux) was one of the main reasons why I decided I cannot stick with Songbird, next to playback glitches and me not finding a customizable list of current songs to play.
No native looks! I use both Windows and Linux and I hate it when a piece of software behaves or looks differently depending on which platform I’m using.
The worst case of this is where, in Firefox for example, the options dialog is found in a completely different menu: “err… I’m using Linux today, so it will be under Edit.”
Even if this change is only concerned with appearance, I like my cross-platform software to be the same wherever I’m using it.
I usually hate non-native looking apps, and custom title bars, but Songbird has done a very nice job of the title bar (at least on windows). I think you should probably leave the custom one, but in the title bar right click menu have an option “use native title bar” or something (by design, not as an extension). Then power users can choose for themselves.
I imagine most linux users (including myself) would prefer a native title bar by default (since the linux titlebar is much more customisable). But please keep the nice small font! (Rhythmbox etc have such a massive font by default, you can only see a dozen songs in the list before you need to start scrolling)
More annoying than the non-native theme is the fact that (at least on vista) if Songbird is maximised, moving the cursor to the far right of the screen does not place focus on the scroll bar, and moving to the top-right does not place focus on the close button. Instead you get a resize cursor which does not work (since the window is maximised)! I feel this is a big usability issue which should be fixed for 1.0. Also Firefox does (and always has done) this nicely, so it can’t be too hard..
Songbird <3
As a user linux (inevitably nerd) I like all my applications to look the same. But it would be great to have the option in order to set as native or current theme.
Thanks for this great program!
I’m a linux’s user too, and I prefer the Os native title bar
As a Linux user, I personally would like to keep songbird the way it is now (without gnome window decorations). One thing I would like to see, however, is window dragging interacting with the window manager better. When using songbird with compiz, it is impossible to drag the player to a new window and the window doesn’t “wobble” when moved. Just a suggestion for better Linux integration.
On Windows, I really like the titlebar Songbird gives. It saves me a good bit of screen space, and just looks pretty. Unless losing it will make Songbird load significantly faster or something, please just leave it.
Native theme-matching seems the way to go to me. Don’t get me wrong, I love songbird’s look. But it’s just like iTunes and Safari on Windows, it doesn’t always match. I think you should opt-in on the native looks, I really like the preview, Gonzo but then shaded with colors of the currently enabled theme. And ofcourse some add-on or setting to enable the non-native titlebar for those who feel like it.
Native on all platforms! PLEASE!!
Why not just offer both as an option to please everyone? I personally prefer applications to blend in with the look of the OS.
Yes, do it, atleast as an option!!!
For me as long as I can over-ride the title bar with feathers I wouldn’t really be all that broken up about it. Would this cause the songbird window to work with Aero? I noticed that it currently doesn’t on my husband’s computer. I am working on getting a linux box up and running again, so I don’t know if it currently works properly with compiz fusion/Kwin. I suspect it does given how linux windows managers work.
Anyway, as long as I can over-ride the title bar thing I think it would be a good option. I really like the complete look and feel that songbird has. I don’t like most of the os aesthetics that are mainstream right now.
Actually the non-native songbird design was the main reason I stopped using it after a few minutes (apart from it being slow, but that’s getting better). I even tried a “native” theme but it just didn’t look right.
So i am STRONGLY in favor of going back to not just native titlebars but also to reuse my native gtk+ theme. So do it just like Firefox does it: Make native the default but allow nice custom themes as well (you could even distribute one custom theme by default)
I like it when everything looks clear and nice. Therefor i don’t like applications who use their one theme.
Do it just like Firefox
PLEASE make it Vista native! The UI acts just plain odd and buggy as it is right now IMO.
PLEASE allow native theme in linux. I really like songbird, but have considered swtiching often lately simply because of this. Of course no right-minded person would want a windows themed anything, but linux and mac can actually look nice and sometimes (not always) songbird would look better with native/system theme. PLEASE…!
Fantastic application, by the way!
yes, native title bar for linux please, that would be great!
I think you should keep the custom title bar. It just looks clean the way it is now.
In a word, no. Not unless it’s optional. I know I’d use it if I could, but I’d want to be able to switch back too
I feel, especially depending on the feather, non-native can look sleeker, whilst native looks more integrated.
I like both looks, but if I had to pick just the one – sleek!
While the non-native look looks better (for me, on Fedora/OpenSolaris), the native look offers an option to move the window across Gnome workspaces. Either fix that bug or make the native default.
I would strongly encourage you to make the default theme use system widgets in windows. Users who don’t like this could always use a custom feather of course. Firefox does it the right way IMHO.
Another vote for yes…please do it. It annoys me when i grab the title bar on my computer and because it isn’t using the native titlebar, it doesn’t work with compiz fusion. I also like the titlebar that I have. So yes…please do it. Or at least make it an option.
Yes, I’m strong supporter in native looks. But if you could make it an option, it would please everyone
I’d love to see Songbird using my theme!
Native titlebar and scrollbars, please.
OS-native title bar, of course!
You should never, ever use custom window chrome for a normal application. Please use the native titlebar. The Windows Vista User Experience Guidelines clearly state that you should not use custom window frames just for branding (http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa974173.aspx). On Vista, this causes you to lose things like the window shadow and animations provided by the DWM. This makes songbird look really out of place on Vista. Other platforms like Linux with Compiz have similar issues.
Please do not change it. ALL linux themes are terrible (no exceptions, even custom ones) and I would hate too loose the right click functionality of the title bar.
It’s not like amarok where the player has a down right ugly theme from the get go – songbird rc1 is beautiful. If anything I’d like to make linux themed like songbird, not songbird themed like linux.
If you must make this an option:
1- Don’t make it default
2- Give the option to switch between the two ways
+1 for native titlebars
I hate apps with non-native window management things. This is part of OS window manager for a reason, rather than having EVERY application doing a separate one. For the record, I use Linux, which I have themed just how I like it.
The better integration songbird has with the platform it runs on, the better, and native titlebars are a part of that.
Native look please! If you bundled it with the current default feather as well, then people could make their choice. I don’t care which one is default as long as I have the choice. Maybe you could make it a choice upon install or first-open.
Please keep it for Mac OS!
Yes, please make a native feather for Vista. Right now, songbird blends in really well with OSX but sticks out like a sore thumb on vista. I think firefox took some really good steps towards giving their application a native look and feel, and I like the results. It would be nice if songbird could be reworked with the glasser userstyle so that the bottom bar was transparent like in windows photo viewer and media player.
For people looking for a native look, at the moment, Aerofirebird is a good feather and good start towards a native look, but it’s not quite there, because it’s missing the glass and the icons are all custom, instead of using the native icons. It’d also be nice to hide the file menu like in the native window apps.
make it optional to use either the integrated title bar or the native OS titlebar
The lack of a native integration into ubuntu is the only reason why I’m not using songbird…
native for ubuntu please!
Yes, please use my desktop theme. I just tried Songbird for the first time and was surprised to see it use its own theme. I was going to send in a bug report, but then I found this thread. I must say I’m also surprised to find so many people saying they do not want Songbird to match their desktop.
For the record, I am using Ubuntu 8.10 with the gorgeous Dust theme and Songbird really sticks out like a sore thumb.
Please please PLEASE use native themes.
I honestly don’t even know why this was done in the first place. Why would you want every window to be themed EXCEPT your media player? It’s just weird.
+1 for native themes. I would prefer a native theme but as many people have said it would be good to have the option to use the “current” theme if the user wishes.
As a note you can use Songbird with compiz to move it between windows by picking it up with ALT+left-click or by using the desktop expo plug-in.
Thanks for a great application, keep up the good work.
Очень занятные мысли, хорошо рассказано, все разложено по полкам
Another vote for native widgets!
Просто замечательно – очень интересные мысли. Разжевано специально для меня
who listen to it. all speak differently. Some one from the other more
Hey!
I would really like to see the original theming on my linux
when do you think you can implement it?
certainly an interesting topic, it is modern